Curse

Abedeus · Dec 24, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

The biggest problem is, once you get to exotic weapons, you need 300 RPs (aka 300k) to get a tormented weapon. I could easily buy a PvE version of that with this much gold.

Yeah, now explain THAT to Upier.

Dmitri3 · Dec 24, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yeah, now explain THAT to Upier.

Stop asking for impossible.

PvP reward was never about paying for luxury. It was about rewarding PvP players, allowing pvp chars to get exotic skins as easily as pve chars.

Meh, can't hear another "paying for luxury" phrase... That's what the guy tells you when he's trying to rip you off and you comment on it.

upier · Dec 24, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

If you can't comprehend what I said, we have nothing to discuss here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

What is stopping you from using Reward Points to get ZKeys, ZKeys to cash and cash to money again?

What's the difference between cash and money?

And what good would all the money in the world be if your character wouldn't be able to jump to Cavalon to craft his armour? You are being offering a different road to the same goal.
But considering the goal is a PvE one - it doesn't make sense for PvP characters to have a shorter or an equally long road.
IF you decide to not take the short road by creating a PvE character - then why shouldn't you overpay? You have the luxury of not doing things you don't like (=PvE), yet still obtain the rewards that one can only get if one does that thing (=doing PvE and reaching Cavalon). Why shouldn't that have a price?
For example, if you get a guy to get you through C1, do you then refuse to pay him for his service if he was planning on going though it either way?
You are paying for the luxury of not having to do certain things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Req 9 crystalline is by far easier. Because PvP Rewards give you a req 9 CUSTOMISED to your one character. To get ONE crystalline req 9 via reward points, you have to spend 10x50 + 20x50 + 300 reward points. That's 1800 points. That's 360 ZKeys. And that's 1800k. I think it's more than enough for a perfect req 9 crystalline.

Yeah, because when you are doing high-end PvP your CS won't be customized, right?
And I really don't see why the concept of being able to obtain a CS only if someone is selling it (or if you get extremely lucky) is so hard to comprehend.
And for the PvP version - you don't need anyone selling it. You just craft it.
It's the same thing if you are buying ectos from people or the merch. Because the merch is much more convenient - you end up paying more.
(The price is high because it's a luxury item. You pay more because you are lazy and you craft it. You pay more because you can obtain the stats you want - sometimes even weapon/stats combos that aren't available in PvE. You are getting PvE rewards without doing PvE. You pay And you pay more because the mods are free and you are getting tons of other stuff for free. That's why the price can in no way be comparable to the PvE version! The problem is your insanely selective view on what is being offered. Like I said - try getting a +60HP prot Willcrusher-skinned staff in PvE. You can't. And you can in PvP. And I don't see why this shouldn't cost a pretty penny.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

And you find NOTHING wrong with overpricing the items so much it would be just cheaper to powerlevel a character to 20, buy normal and elite tomes and just play with PvE one?

No, I don't find anything wrong with that.
I won't pay that much because I consider that dumb - but if a person would refuse to do that, I don't have a problem with them paying that much for the item.
It's the same reason why I wouldn't buy a mini polar bear. But does that mean that because I am not willing to pay it's price - it's price should be dropped to something that I find suitable?
No, I guess I just won't have the teddy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Same goes for Amber/Jade. You are obtaining them through PvP, where you already get Balthazar Faction AND title along the way. But it's easier by PvE.

Yeah, because I want those things to be cheap.
I am selfish little RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that wants to maximize his profit.
Does it make sense that they are cheap?
Well considering how much faster we can gain faction these days compared to the pre-change - no, it probably doesn't.

Just because you want something to be cheap - it really doesn't make sense for it to be cheap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Meh, can't hear another "paying for luxury" phrase... That's what the guy tells you when he's trying to rip you off and you comment on it.

I am not denying you are being ripped off.
I am just saying I have no problem with it, because the people who are being ripped off are the ones that decide that they don't want to take the easy road because they don't like it.

EDIT:
Considering that FoW set do not have any bonuses over 1k sets - does that mean you are getting ripped off when opt for it?
Considering that a CS still is 15-22, the same thing as your most average collectors sword - does that mean you are getting ripped off when you opt for it?
You are paying for certain bonuses. Looks, it being rare, whatever ...
Same thing with being able to craft PvE-rewards in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IXI Nine IXI

Edit: Decided not to throw anymore wood on the fire.

No worries, hon!
I simply didn't care for it since it didn't bring anything constructive to the discussion.
(Ohh and there is a "delete message"-option also.

)

IXI Nine IXI · Dec 24, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Edit: Decided not to throw anymore wood on the fire.

Abedeus · Dec 24, 2008, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Okay, let's ignore Crystalline for a second.

Tormented weapons cost AS MUCH as Crystalline.

Do you consider Tormented weapons rarer than Crystalline?

Or equally rare?

No. Then why do both cost over 1800k? 1/10th of that is too much for a Tormented Sword! And it's auto-customized, you can't give it to your other characters like with the PvE version.

The only thing worth (cough cough) buying as a PvP Reward is armor, but THEN AGAIN, IT'S ONE CHARACTER ONLY. If you want to make a character with a different name, hairstyle or anything, you will loose all unlocks.

The Blade From Hell · Dec 24, 2008, 11:32 AM // 11:32

OH MY GOD.
I cant bear watching people talk about stuff they dont have a half clue about. When you unlock tiers its unlocked account wide. ACCOUNT WIDE. A crystalline costs 300rp not 1800rp a tormented wep is 300 rp NOT 1800 rp. Once u unlock the tier ALL characters have these weapons at 300 rp NOT 1800. The weapons are NOT customized to the char permanently. If you put the weapon on a hero, relog a char and load the hero and take the wep off him then it becomes customized for the next character. Really get a clue about what your saying before you post.

upier · Dec 24, 2008, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Okay, let's ignore Crystalline for a second.

Tormented weapons cost AS MUCH as Crystalline.

Do you consider Tormented weapons rarer than Crystalline?

Or equally rare?

No. Then why do both cost over 1800k? 1/10th of that is too much for a Tormented Sword! And it's auto-customized, you can't give it to your other characters like with the PvE version.

The only thing worth (cough cough) buying as a PvP Reward is armor, but THEN AGAIN, IT'S ONE CHARACTER ONLY. If you want to make a character with a different name, hairstyle or anything, you will loose all unlocks.

Buy FoW for a PvE character.
Delete it and make a new character of the same class, just with a different name.
Do you need to buy FoW again?
Customize a weapon.
Delete that guy.
Do you get another weapon of that kind because the previous guy had it?

The only time that account unlocking would make sense is if buying a set of PvE armour would unlock it for PvP also. The same thing with weapons.

On the subject of Tormy vs. CS - supply and demand.
Tolkano bypasses supply. And demand does not influence his prices either. So you are stuck with a set price. A price might not correspond to the item's worth. It might be lower to what what is the right price - like I said, you are able to craft weapon/combos that aren't even available in PvE! - or, it might be higher - like, the examples you have given.
Whereas in PvE - we are dealing with a price that is dependent on the supply and demand. And nobody wants Tormies these days because everyone and their mother already has them.
Now imagine what would happen if you couldn't get the gems any longer.
How would that influence Tolki's price and how would that influence the PvE price?

And no, you shouldn't be ignoring CSs. Because the ability to craft CSs (or any other thing for that matter - it's just that CS is one of the most extreme things here) is what is driving the price into the sky.
It's like buying an espresso machine that comes with an inbuilt TV. Sure you might not need the TV - but that doesn't mean you don't have to pay for it if you opt for that machine.
If you opt for a crappy weapon and it's insanely overpriced compared to it's PvE version - you are also paying for the fact that you could also be crafting weapons you can not get in PvE.
That's why I am telling you that you are looking at this in a way to simplified matter.

Abedeus · Dec 24, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Customize a weapon.
Delete that guy.
Do you get another weapon of that kind because the previous guy had it?

Why? Why would I want to customise my Monk's Elemental Sword (not that I have one, it's fugly, but it's just an example)? What it would benefit me? Or a wand, staff or anything for casters?

Quote:

Tolkano bypasses supply.

Supply = rp.

You can get as much gold as you can without help of other players.
You can't get any rp without other players. Or opponents. It's not free, you know.

Quote:

And nobody wants Tormies these days because everyone and their mother already has them.

Doesn't change the fact that they cost as much as PvP Crystallines.

What am I saying? Can you customize your PvE Crystalline? No. It's uninscribable. You can't put +5 energy on it. If it drops from HoH, however, you can. And for e-peen purposes, PvE Crystallines don't drop gold. Only purple.

upier · Dec 24, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Why? Why would I want to customise my Monk's Elemental Sword (not that I have one, it's fugly, but it's just an example)? What it would benefit me? Or a wand, staff or anything for casters?

Are you seriously suggesting the use of non-customized stuff for high-end PvP?
Seriously?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Supply = rp.

You can get as much gold as you can without help of other players.
You can't get any rp without other players. Or opponents. It's not free, you know.

Are you seriously equating the odds of PvP ending with no CSs dropping?
Seriously?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Doesn't change the fact that they cost as much as PvP Crystallines.

What am I saying? Can you customize your PvE Crystalline? No. It's uninscribable. You can't put +5 energy on it. If it drops from HoH, however, you can. And for e-peen purposes, PvE Crystallines don't drop gold. Only purple.

No, it doesn't change it.
The reason for it?
Because A.net said so. They are high-end weapons, and the only reason why we don't consider them that any longer is because every one has them.
If they didn't have a set PvP price - it would show. As it does in PvE.

Abedeus · Dec 24, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Are you seriously suggesting the use of non-customized stuff for high-end PvP?
Seriously?

Are you seriously telling people to HIT things with a CUSTOMIZED sword on your CASTER? Sweet Jesus dancing on a Pogo stick!

Quote:

Are you seriously equating the odds of PvP ending with no CSs dropping?
Seriously?

More like - you MUST do ATs to get PvP rewards. You can't use faction to unlock PvP skins.

Quote:

Because A.net said so.

And we should agree to everything A.Net throws at us. You enjoyed Ursan Blessing that A.Net said was good?

Dmitri3 · Dec 24, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

I have lots of PvE characters and yet I still prefer to play with PvP chars. Guess why?

Sometimes I feel like making my PvP char with ugliest skin and armor possible just to mock people... Easy done with just default PvP skins. Sometimes, though, I want the char to not look like an ass... can it be done? Not unless I want to deck out one million gold WORTH of RPs. If I spent them already, I can't re-buy them back. Nope, gotta wait till next predictions or tourny.

Personally, the only thing worth buying with RP is armor, cause you simply can't get it from PvE. And then again, you can't transfer it to other PvP chars... so it blows even more that weapons in the end.

So what if I can change mods? I can do the same with Perfect Salvage Kit. It will still be cheaper to use the kit unless I change mods 1000 times a day. I can't even freaking change my shield from tactics to strength if I want to. Where's flexibility, luxury or whatever, in that?

Krill · Dec 25, 2008, 06:04 AM // 06:04

I'm not going to read this whole thread, but I would also like to see it made realistically possible to buy shit with RP's and covert balth to RP's or be able to simply buy rewards with balth. I have almost 5 million balth and still have to PvP with generic PvP chars or with PvE chars that don't really have a full compliment of gear, and we all know what a hassle that is. I don't really want z-keys and it would be nice to spend balth buying stuff for my PvP characters.

The only way now to realistically acquire enough RP's to buy fancy / exotic rewards is to place high in the mAT's, which is only possible for a tiny number of players.

Of course this is all vanity, but what is the argument against doing this other than the usual knee-jerk, no-no-no everyone must be punished with PvE grind if they want cool gear? Let PvP players decide if they want to use their balth to unlock, open the z-chest, cash out z-keys or buy PvP-only gear directly with balth imo.

Abedeus · Dec 25, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Oh, I remember something.

Upier, how much gold can you farm in a month? If I wanted, I could do something around 200k, if it didn't bore me as hell and if I wanted to waste my mesmer in a Cryway.

And how much Reward Points can you get:

a) Maybe 100 from zaishens.
b) Maybe place 8th or higher in either of ATs.

No other option. In PvE, you have hundreds of methods of gaining gold. In PvP, you get only 2 ways to get RP. So supply is even lower.

upier · Dec 25, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Are you seriously telling people to HIT things with a CUSTOMIZED sword on your CASTER? Sweet Jesus dancing on a Pogo stick!

Unless you are going to be using one of the warrior skills that require a sword - a spear would be a better choice since you get range while still keeping the bonuses. Customized.
But since you also brought up other caster stuff - it would be dumb to not customize them.
So if you are using a CS on your caster - well then, it would be smarter to buy it from another player. If you can't or won't do that - then you have a second option.
It comes customized though.

You aren't forced to buy PvP rewards.
What the PvP rewards enable though is that you aren't forced to obtain things from other players anymore or they enable you to obtain things that you couldn't get otherwise.
Like I said, why shouldn't that have a price?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

More like - you MUST do ATs to get PvP rewards. You can't use faction to unlock PvP skins.

If ATs end - it's going to be because the servers will be shut down or the thing will be replaced by a new system.
And if the servers shut down - good luck finding someone that will sell you a CS ...
If on the other hand the problem is that this insanely limits the amount of people that can obtain them - well, then - they are vanity items.
Your PvP warrior won't be ANY worse of in a core PvP armour and with a core PvP weapon compared to a guy in fancy armour/weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

And we should agree to everything A.Net throws at us. You enjoyed Ursan Blessing that A.Net said was good?

I agree with A.Net that Tormies are high-end weapons.
And that's what is being discussed here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Oh, I remember something.

Upier, how much gold can you farm in a month? If I wanted, I could do something around 200k, if it didn't bore me as hell and if I wanted to waste my mesmer in a Cryway.

And how much Reward Points can you get:

a) Maybe 100 from zaishens.
b) Maybe place 8th or higher in either of ATs.

No other option. In PvE, you have hundreds of methods of gaining gold. In PvP, you get only 2 ways to get RP. So supply is even lower.

But how many options do you have to buy a CSs?
The answer lies between 0 and X. (where X > 0).
You can have all the gold in the world - if no-one is selling, you can't buy it.

Abedeus · Dec 25, 2008, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

If ATs end - it's going to be because the servers will be shut down or the thing will be replaced by a new system.
And if the servers shut down - good luck finding someone that will sell you a CS ...

Or another wave of err7, err13's so people will crash and not be able to play ATs. You rarely get such problems when farming in PvE. And even if, you can do it next morning, AT - nope, sorry, lost your chance.

But since you completely miss the point and you still want to talk about CS, I think I'll go with the "Do not feed the squirrels" routine.

Quote:

But how many options do you have to buy a CSs?

1. Win at HoH.
2. Get from ZChest.
3. Drop non-inscribable from UW or FoW chest.

alallalalala I can't hear you lalalala.

upier · Dec 25, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Or another wave of err7, err13's so people will crash and not be able to play ATs. You rarely get such problems when farming in PvE. And even if, you can do it next morning, AT - nope, sorry, lost your chance.

But since you completely miss the point and you still want to talk about CS, I think I'll go with the "Do not feed the squirrels" routine.

Ahh, so you are arguing that the price is too high because people get disconnected!
In that case - you are right, the servers should be fixed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

1. Win at HoH.
2. Get from ZChest.
3. Drop non-inscribable from UW or FoW chest.

alallalalala I can't hear you lalalala.

If ever - this is the best time for a lolcat I encountered on this forum.
Are you seriously suggesting that the odds of being able to craft the weapon of choice are the same as the odds of having that weapon randomly drop?

Since you love picking out one single sentence - obviously choosing the one you think BEST represents what I am trying to say - I'll make the job easier for you this time.
If you choose to respond - I am arguing the following:
"You want to obtain an item. You want it bad. And you are willing to pay any price for it. Because you REALLY want it.
If you are a PvE player - you can only obtain the item if you get a lucky drop or if someone is selling it. If that does not happen, you can not obtain the item. Period.
If you have access to PvP rewards - you can craft the item.
Why should you pay the PvE price for that?"

I am also arguing that that is only one of the issues that raises the price of PvP items. Just in case you forgot.

Abedeus · Dec 25, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

If ever - this is the best time for a lolcat I encountered on this forum.
Are you seriously suggesting that the odds of being able to craft the weapon of choice are the same as the odds of having that weapon randomly drop?

Yes, the chances of having the weapon randomly drop are much higher than someone spending 1800k worth of reward points to get one weapon he can get for half the normal price. Or 1/10th of it.

Quote:

"You want to obtain an item. You want it bad. And you are willing to pay any price for it. Because you REALLY want it.
If you are a PvE player - you can only obtain the item if you get a lucky drop or if someone is selling it. If that does not happen, you can not obtain the item. Period.
If you have access to PvP rewards - you can craft the item.
Why should you pay the PvE price for that?"

If you are an idiot, use reward points.
If you are smart, buy PvE weapon for 1/10th of the PvP price.

That's why PvP rewards make no sense and are useless.

And why you so badly want to customise caster items? +20% damage on a sword you don't meet requirements on is so much you are willing to overpay? Or wand that deals 20 damage will deal 24 damage, is it really worth paying few times more for it?

*lemming* · Dec 25, 2008, 11:04 AM // 11:04

The system isn't that bad right now. idk why anyone's griping so much.

You can't really think of it as 1500 rps + whatever the thing you want costs. Instead, the initial investment provides you the flexibility to buy stuff on demand.

upier · Dec 25, 2008, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yes, the chances of having the weapon randomly drop are much higher than someone spending 1800k worth of reward points to get one weapon he can get for half the normal price. Or 1/10th of it.

You don't get it.
The odds discussed here are:
You fulfill all the required conditions.
1. You craft a weapon. You are always able to do so.
2. Something drops. IF you get lucky - you obtain the item you want. If you don't get lucky - you are left empty-handed. You can't control luck.
And that's why you are paying extra when crafting PvP weapons.
You don't need to rely on luck to obtain the weapon.

Always > relying on luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

If you are an idiot, use reward points.
If you are smart, buy PvE weapon for 1/10th of the PvP price.

That's why PvP rewards make no sense and are useless.

You also didn't get it.
The example you have responded to states CLEARLY that you can not buy the PvE weapon. Because no-one is selling it.
And the PvP system eliminates this. You can ALWAYS buy the weapon.

You are paying extra each time for that off-chance that you can't obtain the item you want though other means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

And why you so badly want to customise caster items? +20% damage on a sword you don't meet requirements on is so much you are willing to overpay? Or wand that deals 20 damage will deal 24 damage, is it really worth paying few times more for it?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ight=customize

Abedeus · Dec 25, 2008, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

You don't get it.
The odds discussed here are:
You fulfill all the required conditions.
1. You craft a weapon. You are always able to do so.
2. Something drops. IF you get lucky - you obtain the item you want. If you don't get lucky - you are left empty-handed. You can't control luck.
And that's why you are paying extra when crafting PvP weapons.
You don't need to rely on luck to obtain the weapon.

Always > relying on luck.

See, here's the problem with your logic. You assume people have unlimited access to Reward Points. They don't. If someone enjoys HA, AB or any non-GvG, non-HB form of PvP, he can't get those points other way than by predictions. Which yield a max of 100 points.

Here's another biased scenario:

1. You can't craft because you are 10 RPs short. You can't just go out of town and kill monsters, as you would do when you lack 10k gold. Because 10 RP = 10k.

2. You can always buy a thing because if you overprice it, you will find 5 sellers. Say you want a req 9 Elemental Sword perf, +30 hp zealous 15^50. How much it's worth in PvE? 100k + 20 ectos? Okay, you get your RPs, convert them to zkeys, then to money. You leave 100k, convert the rest to ectoes and you can give a WTB 100k + 50e. And you save a fortune.

Quote:

You also didn't get it.
The example you have responded to states CLEARLY that you can not buy the PvE weapon. Because no-one is selling it.
And the PvP system eliminates this. You can ALWAYS buy the weapon.

You can't buy PvP weapon if you lack even 1rp. You must have equal or more than it to get the weapon.

I noticed nice thing about your posts.

You always give a PERFECT scenario to prove your point.

Because there is no way you might be wrong.

Also, re-read the OP. Because you are missing the point.